2nd Interview with Paul the Apostle on his letter to the church in Rome.
JWE: I’d like to revisit some of the verses we skipped over in our last interview. In your letter to the Romans you spend a lot of time addressing the Jewish segment of the church, why?
Paul: There are a couple of reasons that take the forefront; firstly, many Jews have an introductory knowledge of the Torah (Scriptures), at the very least. The Torah contains the law and the prophets who spoke of Jesus. The vast majority of Gentiles would have been totally ignorant of the Torah. Romans 1:2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures…
JWE: I’ve heard that many Jews were jealous of the Torah and tried to restrict the Gentiles’ access to it.
Paul: Yes, there was a sense of “specialness” that we felt because God chose us to be His people and to have His Law. Romans 3:1 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.
JWE: Why did God choose the Jew to be His people?
Paul: God chose them because of Abraham. His faith in God brought a special favor. God’s promises to Abraham, the ancestor of the Jews, were extended to Israel. God pledged that Abraham would be a blessing to the world through his offspring. Genesis 18:18 “…Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."
JWE: Was part of that blessing Christ?
Paul: Yes, and that brings me to the second point of why I spent so much time writing about Jewish believers and the Law. Perhaps some of them would have heard Jesus preach. Some probably would have known the 12 Apostles. Some were influential leaders in the Roman church.
JWE: I get the sense that you are writing against being a Jew. Do you believe they must become Gentiles to be followers of Christ (Messianic Jews)?
Paul: No, I am constantly fighting against the thinking that one must become a Jew first, before becoming a Christian. Likewise, I fight the teaching that one must become a Gentile to be a Christian. That was a huge problem in the 1st century and remains so in the 21st century. Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
JWE: The Law is another very prominent in your letters. But it seems you use the term in different way.
Paul: True. That is because the Law is composed of three inter-related parts: Ten Commandments, ceremonial and civil. The Ten Commandments are the moral laws that God gave Moses on Mount Sinai. God also gave the ceremonial law to Moses as well, regulating the sacrificial system. The civil law also given by God, detailing laws that dealt with injuries or who can marry whom and etc. Sometimes they are all included in my use of the word Law.
JWE: I see that you use the word 50 times in the letter to the Romans.
Paul: To the Jew the Law was very important. It set them apart from the rest of the world. They also thought that was their salvation.
JWE: Well, wasn’t it their way of salvation? I’ve heard many say that “all roads lead to Rome.” Aren’t there different ways to get to heaven?
Paul: The law reveals sin. It shows the shortcoming of each one who knows the law and tries to keep it. It can’t be done. Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
JWE: You wrote: RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Doesn’t this prove that it is possible to get to heaven by keeping the law?
Paul: Yes, if anyone could keep the law! But look all you want, and you will find only one man in all of human history that has lived without sin.
JWE: Christ?
Paul: Yes, aside from Christ, I repeat, ” … all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
JWE: I’ve got a question about what you meant there. What does glory mean?
Paul: The Greek word I used there doxa δοξα has the primary meaning of expectation. That doesn’t mean that glory is wrong, but it loses something. Then the word sinned harmatano ημαρτανο, as well can mean generally, fail of one's purpose, go wrong.
JWE: “…all have gone wrong and fallen short of the expectations of God?”
Paul: Yes!
JWE: Gentiles and Jews are failures.
Paul: Whatever we do to match up to God’s expectations is not enough. We still fall short of His expectations.
JWE: Dosen’t this throw into doubt the sincerity of God? How can He expect something from us that we can’t do. Didn’t He make us like we are. Aren’t we born sinners?
Paul: This is a complicated series of question? No, the truthfulness of God is not in doubt. No, we can’t blame our sinfulness on God. He is just, we have failed in our obligation. God has never failed, in fact He kept his commitment to reconcile man to Himself.
JWE: How did He do that?
Paul: Look at what I wrote in Romans chapter 3. There I show that salvation is based on one thing for all people, for all time, That is faith.
JWE: What do you mean by faith?
Paul: Faith is the conviction that what God said would come true. In chapter 3 verse 21, I said that God’s righteousness, as told by the prophets, was proved by His faith in Jesus Christ. God operates on faith as well!
JWE: So, God’s faith in Jesus to complete the “assignment” was borne out but his finishing the job of reconciliation?
Paul: On the cross he said, “It is finished.”
JWE: We will continue our discussion later.
Paul: Great!
Thursday, March 17, 2005
Sunday, March 13, 2005
Interview with Paul
I’ve often interviewed Paul the Apostle in my mind while reading his writings: What did you mean by this or that? Why did you say it this way? To whom were you talking? So, I’ve gone one step farther and have tried to put those questions on paper and what I think His response might be as I see it in Scripture. I am Brother Joe, henceforth known as BroJoe in the interview.
BroJoe: Paul, I notice that you have said two different things about God, or at least it looks like it to many, in chapter 1 verses 17 and 18 of your letter to the church at Rome. It says that God's righteousness is revealed and His wrath is revealed. How can He be righteous and angry?
Paul: It might look like two contradictory sentiments, but in fact they aren't. He is righteous and He reveals that righteousness, yet, He is angry and He reveals that as well. These are not two mutually exclusive emotions.
BroJoe: Why did you put it that way? Is it possible for a righteous God to be wrathful?
Paul: Absolutely. God’s righteousness is actually revealed by His wrath against sin. He, as the basis for truth or “rightness,” must deal with sin. God shows His righteousness by dealing sternly with sin ("death" to the offender), and at the same time forgiving an offender by paying for that sin (death to a sacrifice).
BroJoe: God’s righteousness is revealed as love towards those who have faith in Him but it is directed as anger at those who reject Him, or as the Apostle John wrote:
JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Paul: Yes, His righteousness is revealed as love towards those who have “faith” but His wrath against those who are “faithless” or those who don’t believe Him. Let’s jump ahead to the conclusion of my proofs for the righteousness of His wrath, to my conclusion in 3:22b-24:
There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
BroJoe: That is helpful for me to know. I’ve noticed that you put your proof before the statement of your proposition: …all have sinned…(all) are justified freely by grace…. By putting things is that order it is harder for us 21st century Westerners to follow along. We normally would have put things in a different order, like this: the wrath of god is being revealed from heaven…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (and) a righteousness from God is revealed (for all) are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
BroJoe: I have another question right here about this redemption for all. Are you saying that everyone, from all time has been saved?
Paul: No, I deal with that a bit further on in chapter 6 verse 23:
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
There are conditions to receiving salvation—FAITH.
BroJoe: We will deal with faith in greater detail latter.
Paul: Perhaps from you Western mindset you “re-statement” of my arguments would flow better for you. But you must remember I was writing to the 1st century church at Rome, which had many Jewish believers in Christ. They had been taught from the same sort of rabbinic schools as I.
BroJoe: In verse 19 you say: …what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. You say even the godless, wicked; suppressers of the truth have been made to know about God. How is I Plain? Many would disagree with that premise.
Paul: First of all, God is righteous. This means that He would not leave people clueless. God has made it plain to them. His eternal power and divine nature are clear. This is seen in the physical creation. I refer back to verse 18 to remind you that men have and will hold back the truth by violating law and justice. In verse 20 I maintain that the God of creation can be seen in the very building blocks κτισεως of nature. So they are without excuse.
BroJoe: Then, you are saying that in the final court of appeal they won’t be able to say, “We didn’t know.”
Paul: Exactly, god has made sure that they know He exists. With this elemental “knowing,” they could have gone on to seek God who promised to be found. The prophet Jeremiah said, Jeremiah 29:12-14 “Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you," declares the LORD, "
BroJoe: I saw this in Proverbs 1:28: PR 1:28 "Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me.
Paul: True, but God is speaking to those who have refused His call to them. PR 1:29 Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD. They earned what they got. That does not mean that if they sincerely repent that God would not save them.
JWE: Lets go back to your letter. You said that God has been clearly seen since the creation of the world. Do you mean that after Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden their offspring knew of God?
Paul: Yes. It is written in Hebrew 11:2 that the ancients were commended for their faith in God. They knew god had created the world. Where did they learn that? From Adam, Eve and God. Even Abel believed what God said about sacrifice. He did as told and was blessed. Cain did not believe, and was rejected. Who told him but God? Enoch believed God and pleased Him, so God took him straight to heaven without going through death. The story goes on—however, if you don’t believe God, you can’t please Him.
BroJoe: What you are saying is—those people who lived after the “apple” incident continued to have communication with God, or rather God had communication with them?
Paul: Yes, but sadly greater and greater numbers of them refused to glorify and thank God for who He was what He had don for them. RO 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
BroJoe: That is an interesting phrase, “foolish heart.”
Paul: I’m referring to scriptures like PS 14:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good…
BroJoe: You use a lot of Old Testament scriptures.
Paul: As I said in verse 2: God spoke through his prophets in the sacred scriptures. I use God’s words as texts from which to base my understanding of God’s will.
BroJoe: What did you mean, “they claimed to be wise, they became fools?”
Paul: Their “studies” into “secrets” of spirits led them into their so-called wisdom (1:23) where they found out, that images (idols) of things that God created, were really gods.
BroJoe: What was God’s reaction to that?
Paul: They went from bad to worse and God did not wipe them out. He did not stop them from going where they wanted. Their path took them into sexual perversion. The farther they went the faster they traveled down that road to death. Sexual perversion is an hallmark for the fool, the God rejecter.
BroJoe: Those seem to be some pretty bad things; many people don’t participate in them. So, are those who don’t do those things off the hook?
Paul: Absolutely not! There are other things that a rejecter of God has in his heart: greed, envy, strife, deceit, gossips, arrogant, boasters and so on.
BroJoe: Some of those things don’t seem as bad as the first group of sinners.
Paul: Let me ask a question, “Did God tell people to do those things or not?”
BroJoe: No, but did He explicitly say not to do these things. Can He righteously judge them if they are ignorant of what not to do?
Paul: You may be surprised that I will tell you that man has innate laws. Laws that spring from within himself (2:1). A man will pass judgment on another. If you don’t believe me, sit in a group for a while and listen to what they have to say about someone else. “That is wrong or evil,” they say. Then they do the same thing. They have just judged themselves. So when God judges them, He only has to use their own judgments as the standard to prove their guilt.
BroJoe: God uses their own laws against them to prove their guilt?
Paul: Yes. If they claim ignorance of God’s law, He will hold them up to their own measure. (Their own laws are merely subsets of God’s law.) By them, God proves them sinful.
BroJoe: Up to this point you are saying, “all have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory.”
Paul: Ignorance of God law will not allow men to escape God’s righteous judgment (2:3). On top of that they are contemptuous of God’s kindness. He did not immediately kill them; he is tolerant and patient with them, trying to lead them to repentance (2:4).
BroJoe: Does God continue to let people live, even though sinning, hoping they will repent, even if they are doing horrible things, like killing children?
Paul: Yes. Obviously there are consequences if they don’t repent. Even if they live in luxury to a ripe old age, they will pay in the next life. There is an accounting that will take place on the Day of Judgment, the day of God’s Wrath.
BroJoe: In Romans 2:6 it appears if someone is able to keep their own laws, they will make it into heaven.
Paul: Not at all, if someone is persistent in doing (moral) good, is opposed to (moral) evil, seek glory as opposed to falling short of God’s glory; if they see to honor God, and seek immortality (eternal life), as opposed to things of this life, they will find God, and he will give them eternal life (2:7)
.
BroJoe: In Romans 2:9 you finally mention the Jew.
Paul: Yes, in this chapter I show that their remarkable sin is boasting. They think that having the law enables them to gain righteousness. The law, however, is not a means or path to salvation, but a death warrant. It proves the sinfulness of those who use it as their standard.
BroJoe: The end result is that the Jews are as sinful as anyone else?
Paul: Certainly! For all have sinned. Any attempt to make oneself good in the eyes of God is an abject failure. We are sinners, every last stinking one of us!
BroJoe: In another interview we will look further into this problem of boasting and also discuss how to get out of the mess of sin.
BroJoe: Paul, I notice that you have said two different things about God, or at least it looks like it to many, in chapter 1 verses 17 and 18 of your letter to the church at Rome. It says that God's righteousness is revealed and His wrath is revealed. How can He be righteous and angry?
Paul: It might look like two contradictory sentiments, but in fact they aren't. He is righteous and He reveals that righteousness, yet, He is angry and He reveals that as well. These are not two mutually exclusive emotions.
BroJoe: Why did you put it that way? Is it possible for a righteous God to be wrathful?
Paul: Absolutely. God’s righteousness is actually revealed by His wrath against sin. He, as the basis for truth or “rightness,” must deal with sin. God shows His righteousness by dealing sternly with sin ("death" to the offender), and at the same time forgiving an offender by paying for that sin (death to a sacrifice).
BroJoe: God’s righteousness is revealed as love towards those who have faith in Him but it is directed as anger at those who reject Him, or as the Apostle John wrote:
JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Paul: Yes, His righteousness is revealed as love towards those who have “faith” but His wrath against those who are “faithless” or those who don’t believe Him. Let’s jump ahead to the conclusion of my proofs for the righteousness of His wrath, to my conclusion in 3:22b-24:
There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
BroJoe: That is helpful for me to know. I’ve noticed that you put your proof before the statement of your proposition: …all have sinned…(all) are justified freely by grace…. By putting things is that order it is harder for us 21st century Westerners to follow along. We normally would have put things in a different order, like this: the wrath of god is being revealed from heaven…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (and) a righteousness from God is revealed (for all) are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
BroJoe: I have another question right here about this redemption for all. Are you saying that everyone, from all time has been saved?
Paul: No, I deal with that a bit further on in chapter 6 verse 23:
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
There are conditions to receiving salvation—FAITH.
BroJoe: We will deal with faith in greater detail latter.
Paul: Perhaps from you Western mindset you “re-statement” of my arguments would flow better for you. But you must remember I was writing to the 1st century church at Rome, which had many Jewish believers in Christ. They had been taught from the same sort of rabbinic schools as I.
BroJoe: In verse 19 you say: …what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. You say even the godless, wicked; suppressers of the truth have been made to know about God. How is I Plain? Many would disagree with that premise.
Paul: First of all, God is righteous. This means that He would not leave people clueless. God has made it plain to them. His eternal power and divine nature are clear. This is seen in the physical creation. I refer back to verse 18 to remind you that men have and will hold back the truth by violating law and justice. In verse 20 I maintain that the God of creation can be seen in the very building blocks κτισεως of nature. So they are without excuse.
BroJoe: Then, you are saying that in the final court of appeal they won’t be able to say, “We didn’t know.”
Paul: Exactly, god has made sure that they know He exists. With this elemental “knowing,” they could have gone on to seek God who promised to be found. The prophet Jeremiah said, Jeremiah 29:12-14 “Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you," declares the LORD, "
BroJoe: I saw this in Proverbs 1:28: PR 1:28 "Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me.
Paul: True, but God is speaking to those who have refused His call to them. PR 1:29 Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD. They earned what they got. That does not mean that if they sincerely repent that God would not save them.
JWE: Lets go back to your letter. You said that God has been clearly seen since the creation of the world. Do you mean that after Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden their offspring knew of God?
Paul: Yes. It is written in Hebrew 11:2 that the ancients were commended for their faith in God. They knew god had created the world. Where did they learn that? From Adam, Eve and God. Even Abel believed what God said about sacrifice. He did as told and was blessed. Cain did not believe, and was rejected. Who told him but God? Enoch believed God and pleased Him, so God took him straight to heaven without going through death. The story goes on—however, if you don’t believe God, you can’t please Him.
BroJoe: What you are saying is—those people who lived after the “apple” incident continued to have communication with God, or rather God had communication with them?
Paul: Yes, but sadly greater and greater numbers of them refused to glorify and thank God for who He was what He had don for them. RO 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
BroJoe: That is an interesting phrase, “foolish heart.”
Paul: I’m referring to scriptures like PS 14:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good…
BroJoe: You use a lot of Old Testament scriptures.
Paul: As I said in verse 2: God spoke through his prophets in the sacred scriptures. I use God’s words as texts from which to base my understanding of God’s will.
BroJoe: What did you mean, “they claimed to be wise, they became fools?”
Paul: Their “studies” into “secrets” of spirits led them into their so-called wisdom (1:23) where they found out, that images (idols) of things that God created, were really gods.
BroJoe: What was God’s reaction to that?
Paul: They went from bad to worse and God did not wipe them out. He did not stop them from going where they wanted. Their path took them into sexual perversion. The farther they went the faster they traveled down that road to death. Sexual perversion is an hallmark for the fool, the God rejecter.
BroJoe: Those seem to be some pretty bad things; many people don’t participate in them. So, are those who don’t do those things off the hook?
Paul: Absolutely not! There are other things that a rejecter of God has in his heart: greed, envy, strife, deceit, gossips, arrogant, boasters and so on.
BroJoe: Some of those things don’t seem as bad as the first group of sinners.
Paul: Let me ask a question, “Did God tell people to do those things or not?”
BroJoe: No, but did He explicitly say not to do these things. Can He righteously judge them if they are ignorant of what not to do?
Paul: You may be surprised that I will tell you that man has innate laws. Laws that spring from within himself (2:1). A man will pass judgment on another. If you don’t believe me, sit in a group for a while and listen to what they have to say about someone else. “That is wrong or evil,” they say. Then they do the same thing. They have just judged themselves. So when God judges them, He only has to use their own judgments as the standard to prove their guilt.
BroJoe: God uses their own laws against them to prove their guilt?
Paul: Yes. If they claim ignorance of God’s law, He will hold them up to their own measure. (Their own laws are merely subsets of God’s law.) By them, God proves them sinful.
BroJoe: Up to this point you are saying, “all have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory.”
Paul: Ignorance of God law will not allow men to escape God’s righteous judgment (2:3). On top of that they are contemptuous of God’s kindness. He did not immediately kill them; he is tolerant and patient with them, trying to lead them to repentance (2:4).
BroJoe: Does God continue to let people live, even though sinning, hoping they will repent, even if they are doing horrible things, like killing children?
Paul: Yes. Obviously there are consequences if they don’t repent. Even if they live in luxury to a ripe old age, they will pay in the next life. There is an accounting that will take place on the Day of Judgment, the day of God’s Wrath.
BroJoe: In Romans 2:6 it appears if someone is able to keep their own laws, they will make it into heaven.
Paul: Not at all, if someone is persistent in doing (moral) good, is opposed to (moral) evil, seek glory as opposed to falling short of God’s glory; if they see to honor God, and seek immortality (eternal life), as opposed to things of this life, they will find God, and he will give them eternal life (2:7)
.
BroJoe: In Romans 2:9 you finally mention the Jew.
Paul: Yes, in this chapter I show that their remarkable sin is boasting. They think that having the law enables them to gain righteousness. The law, however, is not a means or path to salvation, but a death warrant. It proves the sinfulness of those who use it as their standard.
BroJoe: The end result is that the Jews are as sinful as anyone else?
Paul: Certainly! For all have sinned. Any attempt to make oneself good in the eyes of God is an abject failure. We are sinners, every last stinking one of us!
BroJoe: In another interview we will look further into this problem of boasting and also discuss how to get out of the mess of sin.
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